[Music]
I get
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me Gayatri
president erdogan is steadily and
increasingly taking turkey into a dark
totalitarian tunnel it may be some time
before the great people of turkey will
see the light again seizing opposition
newspaper by force and turning them
overnight into government mouthpieces
turning TV into mind numbing repetition
of arogan sultanic pretentions are just
the least of it the Turkish state is in
a fullscale war against the Kurdish
population as well as non-kurdish
opponents of the president blood is
Flowing on the streets of turkey turkey
is at war with Syria too not least
against the Syrian Kurds and seems to be
trying to drag the rest of us into war
not just with Syria but his Russian and
Iranian allies it's all a far cry from
the early years and the policy of no
quarrels with the neighbors a peace
process with the Kurds and moderate
islamism which knew the way to growth to
help us make sense of what's going on we
have mamed aoy director activist and
editor of Kurdish question M what's
behind all this I think to understand
the current situation uh we need to go
back to the' 60s and70s uh when the US
especially um with the help of the CIA
uh was supporting um anti- Soviet um
moderate islamist uh forces in Turkey um
these were also neoliberal uh movements
or parties and the gulan movement was
one of these um their rise uh came in
the '90s um together with Eran they were
part of the same political line of that
time um and uh they opened hundreds of
charter schools around the world um and
you know financially sound um and they
uh were in a coalition with the an
government when erdogan came to power in
fact a lot of people say that it was
gulan who got erdogan the goahead from
from the US um and as soon as they came
into Power uh they started uh slowly
infiltrating um the police force the
Judiciary they started taking over um
the classic uh Finance system of turkey
which was ruled at that time by the
chemist secularist Elite um and started
uh taking from Istanbul to to Anatolia
to the mainland of turkey and um uh for
a long period of time they they were
working together to discredit to
imprison the opposition so they started
with the okon case which you probably
know about in 2005 and six um and
eliminated uh the chist opposition
within the military um within politics
and within the um economic World um and
in 2009 again they did this to the
Kurdish opposition by imprisoning up to
10,000 activists in the KCK uh the
Kurdistan communities Union trials um
but I guess the cake got too big um and
interests began to collide um eran's uh
rise eran's power struggle with gulan
ended in 2012 uh with them slowly
starting to drift apart um the AKP
government wanted to shut down gulan
schools to break his um his influence uh
some people were saying that he had up
to 9 million votes in Turkey which would
have made up to half of the akp's votes
in elections um so since 2012 there's
been an escalation uh of of uh this uh
Feud uh between the two um and this has
led to recent developments with the
Zaman so Zaman was gulen's newspaper it
was previously therefore supportive of
erdogan it was the government mouthpiece
yeah then an opposition paper and now
it's been taken over how was that
legally possible there is no legal
ground I mean the the government claimed
that uh it's it's a legal matter and
there's a case of uh you know Financial
kind of
irregularities um but everybody knows um
and and the government and erdogan are
not hiding very much anymore um they are
trying to weaken G well actually to
eliminate him completely from from
Turkish Society from Turkish politics um
what's important I think is also that
erdogan has uh developed a new Coalition
with the groups that he imprisoned um so
with the Aron uh the military generals
um uh the finance Circle who were
imprisoned the journalists who were
imprisoned during that time from 2006
onwards uh were then released recently
from prison and erogan has uh created a
new uh Coalition with that force with
his former enemies enemies who were
against his former friends exactly flip
flopping here huh
flip extraordinary um what's important
is that this this Cadre who are very
nationalist uh Turks um were also the
perpetrators of the violence against the
Kurds in the '90s the gladio and the
Deep State uh they they were made up of
these these figures um so now with those
figures they attacking the Kurdish
region in the last seven months as you
know sieges martial lockdowns hundreds
and hundreds of civilians killed um and
this this goes on so now there is a
uh a war against any opposition groups
um that dare to say anything against
Aron even the even basic things and yet
and yet uh turkey remains uh a key uh
Cornerstone of NATO uh which we were
always told was the military Alliance of
the democracies to what extent Can
erogan Turkey any longer credibly be
described as a
democracy I think that International
Powers NATO the EU the US are not very
happy with erdogan and what's going on
in turkey at the moment um because I
think they wanted erdogan and the the
turkey government to be more successful
for example in their Syria policy um in
their uh struggle with Russia for
dominance uh influence in in Syria uh
but obviously when Assad didn't fall and
turkey as you mentioned in your opening
um have trouble with all their neighbors
now at the moment they've lost that
policy uh I think um that International
Powers aren't happy but they can't do
anything because Aran has uh the refugee
uh card up his sleeve and he's playing
it very well um and also uh there is the
chaos is still uh developing in in in in
the region so they can't forgo or let go
of erdogan completely but they know that
uh democracy is completely under attack
in Turkey he's now sorry I beg go ahead
no no well I you spoke about umon
cutting off uh gulen's influence but
gulan obviously has International re
he's got you know they've got Charter
Schools all over the world is there no
fear of a backlash from from the Turkish
diaspora from you know the rest of the
world babies basically abroad I think to
complete what I was saying earlier um
the reason uh they fell out was because
of influence but then uh the erdogan
government started accusing the gulan
movement of creating a parallel State
and now that's what they call it the the
parallel State um and of gulen uh trying
to influence the Judiciary trying to
influence the
media of being uh uh at least in part
true it does I mean was creating a
parallel State he was the Americans man
in Turkey uh so in this sense from our
point of view this is a battle between
two puppets like a Punch and Judy uh
exactly it's a it's a it's a power
struggle between two forces who are not
Democratic who do not want to
democratize Turkey democratize Society
so in a way although uh there's an
injustice with what's going on with
Zaman they also uh took into
Administration the Jihan music agency
which is also uh in opposition and close
to the Gillen movement um but it's you
know they're both very very uh um forces
which are uh I think dangerous to to the
future of Turkey um and the hypocritic
hypocritical in in their policies and
and what they did together against
Turkish Society for almost 10 years and
then what happened after they fell out
um so I think erdogan being against Ken
is not him I don't know struggl against
imperialism or American influence in
Turkey it's just to consolidate his own
power for a presidential system and for
furthering his own CA but his power is
now virtually untrammeled uh he would
say well he was elected to it just like
Hitler was elected uh to it but he's
used the elective position uh just I'm
not comparing the two in terms of levels
of criminality but Hitler used his
electoral mandate to then Crush
opposition and seems to me erdogan is
doing the same thing the analogy is
perfect I think um after the Adon
knocked over the Kurdish peace process
table in April
2015 um we have we have said that there
is in effect a coup a civilian
government military coup in Turkey which
is still ongoing and this is all part of
that coup to silence to crush opposition
and to take over every single uh sphere
of of of social life uh so the Hitler uh
analy um contrast comparison is is very
much real although people in you know
when you when you say this people find
it a bit of an exaggeration the people
on the ground in Turkey uh are saying
this every
day no one at the moment uh is emerging
as able to stand up to this the uh the
the secularist cists have been now Rec
coopted the Kurdish leadership divided
between Iraqi Kurds Syrian Kurds Turkish
Kurds Kurds outside uh is not strong
enough to stand up to it the Army was
decapitated with all the generals being
arrested and now as you say some of them
being brought back uh the only thing you
can say that uh erdogan must fear is
losing the support of the Americans the
European Union and so on his pretentions
of joining the European Union are surely
now dead I mean as you know dutu the
Prime Minister was in the an EU Summit
about the refugees um and discussions
about turkey's uh accession into the EU
are back on the table supposedly uh but
it's a very um a very pragmatic policy
on on behalf of the the EU as well um I
don't think that they genuinely
uh would accept turkey or want turkey uh
in in the in the way it is but they have
to deal with turkey both because of
Syria but also because of the refugee
crisis now the EU and Western
governments have a very kind of
two-faced uh policy I mean when all this
was going on um before before Zaman the
imctv an independent left uh
oppositional TV station was completely
blacked out without any court order um a
public prosecutor wrote a letter to the
uh to the satellite company and they
just blacked out the channel um as eram
J and John dundar who were two jum
newspaper journalists came out of prison
and were giving a live interview um so
the EU did not say a single word about
this they did not say a single word
about the 178 Kurds massacred burnt
alive in a basement in jiz so the
gillan's influence and the gulan
movement's influence is also making
helping uh these things get talked about
more in in the western media well the
Western media is beginning to turn and
erdogan's uh behavior is being
characterized as blackmail over the
refugees and so on this is a fascinating
topic unfortunately we've run out of
time okay but I think it's important
that we keep this keep our watching
brief on this subject thanks very much
for joining us coming up next don't feed
the trolls a look at the social media
oper ations at work stay
[Music]
tuned welcome back to Sputnik anyone
active on social media knows that the
vile and the venal all have Twitter
accounts but what happens when you're
targeted systematically by not just the
lonely man in his vest in an attic but
by darker forces with resources behind
them Neil Clark author and political
commentator is one of those regularly
targeted and and he joins us now my
scars are bigger than yours but let's
agree we're not going we're not going to
show each other their scars I looked
yesterday for the first time ever at my
Wikipedia page and by the end of the re
even I hated myself I certainly would
never let my daughter marry a guy like
that truly
unbelievable the reason I had never
looked at it was because I knew that
every slanderer in the country if not
the world had access to amend and edit
and add to the page so I didn't want to
give it any credit um that struck me uh
as large scale organized subversion of
someone's uh Public Image that's really
what we're talking about here isn't it
absolutely if you look at the the main
editor of your page uh it's the same
person who has edited the pages of
Sheamus mil our friend who who's now the
Press officer for Jeremy Corbin same
person has edited the page of media lens
through an anti-war media monitoring
organization uh John piller's Page so we
have we have a an operation going here
yes the editor in question his role is
quite clearly is to Target the pages of
I would say
anti-war uh figures like such as
yourself and to put up the most damaging
possible edits so that anybody any
neutral person just coming on Googling
George Galloway let's find out about
George Gallow would look at and think oh
my God this guys but then if everybody
can edit it then someone can re-edit it
into something POS well not quite
because you have to be a credible Source
exactly anded that we're talking about
who has put the damaging stuff on your
page he set himself as the Arbiter what
is a creditable source and the credible
source for him is anything that's
damaging to you or to Sheamus mil and
the non-reliable source is any articles
praising I wrote an article in defense
of Sheamus who's a friend of mine uh for
for the Sputnik website and the same
editor who's edited your page rulle that
that was not a reliable source it was a
Russian Source another article from the
hington post was ruled out that hington
post is not a Russian site but he
wouldn't allow that on so if people look
at your page look at Shamus Mills look
at media lens Pages they will see the
editor in question and they will see
what his agenda is quite clearly a
political agenda it it's it's laughable
in a way I think it's best to laugh at
it rather than cry uh but it's not
restricted to attacking people it's also
defending others uh so that uh people
who take a diametrically opposed you to
ours they will never get negative things
on their p and the same editor that
we're talking about who's edited your
page maliciously Sheamus Mills page on
pilers media lens Etc protects the pages
what you would call The proar
Establishment in Britain to make sure
that their Pages show them in the best
possible light the way that the media
frames the sort of trolling debate is
they always say you know it's the man in
the vest sitting in the Attic who is
targeting a celebrity but in my
experience the worst the most vicious
and vile people on social media have
been establishment figures themselves
establishment journalists and I've been
targeted by one in particular for over
10 years now wow I reviewed a book by
this person in question and he subjected
me to the most incredible campaign of
persecution for 10 years on several
fronts which is regular it's mon TW
tweeting manically about me seeing who
retweets me and then if I if it's
someone he deems important enough then
waiting in to warn them off with what
happens with me if someone says anything
nice about me on Twitter a gang of
trolls descend on them to try and
dissuade them or at least intimidate
it's about marginalizing people is
anyone sends a negative about me these
people all team up with them yes that
happens to me exactly exactly the same
thing I saw an article at one point uh
of the uh Israeli troll Factory where
students are actually paid money to be
on
Twitter yes is that what we're talking
about here or is it or is it more
ideologically motiva I'm not sure I mean
but I think that certainly with me if
you look at the Wikipedia situation I
mean surely the person in question must
be paid to do that because he seems to
spend all his time all his life doing
that he must have an income from
somewhere on the Israeli trolls it's an
interesting story when we had the
Parliamentary vote on bombing the Syrian
government I think it was in 2013 wasn't
it I tweeted the night before you know
let's hope this is defeated and the
morning after when labor voted against
and it was defeated thankfully you made
a big impact there as well uh I actually
uh tweeted this is great news we're not
going to go to war with Syria and I was
bombarded all of a sudden with with
trolls coming in calling me an Assad
apologist supporter of genocide with
Israeli flags on them MH all of a sudden
and I hadn't mentioned Israel yeah I
hadn't written about Israel I just said
we got to stop this drive to war so
clearly some Israeli trolls didn't like
the fact that we voted against the war
against the government that was fighting
Isis and al-Qaeda in Syria and we
targeting those that's before we started
bombing Isis and Al and so clearly the
strategy was to Target those like me who
were opposed to that strategy which does
it work uh Neil well I I think that
we're getting a backlash hopefully now
because I think people only have to see
these accounts and see their obsessional
you know their Obsession Behavior you
you get them you get people who spend
all their life troubling you and this
platform they don't take any
responsibility yeah no no they don't
well they do for some people you see if
you're a celebrity or say a feminist
antic Corbin labor MP yes and you the
police will be at the door of the uh
accused uh very very quickly I'm
regularly threatened with death people
saying that they would like to plunge
knives into me or uh and you were
attacked physically was physically
attacked but when I complain to the
police they say well Twitter won't
cooperate so we can't find out who these
people are which doesn't uh fill you
with confidence about
the Authority's ability to combat
terrorism for example quite I mean I was
a near 30e British Member of Parliament
physically attacked in the street
regularly almost weekly uh threatened
with death or harm uh and yet no one uh
ever gets arrested for the latter and
they only got arrested for the former
because we caught the guy there and then
yes um I'm wondering though uh if it
worked because a moment glancing at the
profile of people who attack me would
show you exactly why they're attacking
me they're either big supporters of
things that I'm against or big opponents
of things that I'm for uh or their uh
blairites or whatever and I'm assuming
that the ever more Discerning and
educated audience can see where these
things are coming from well You' like to
think so wouldn't you I mean the tactic
of my talk has been that if I get
tweeted positively by someone on the on
the left then they he tries to betray me
as someone on the right yes he's really
far right you know tried to portray me a
sort of Leen esig which is ludicrous and
equally if somebody on the middle or
perhaps center right quotes me with appr
approval or tweets me with approval he
comes in and his followers come in and
say well yeah he supports he's Germany
he's a stalinist he's a friend of
Sheamus Mill you know he's a tanky
whatever so the tactic is to try to
defame you with whatever group is
actually looking at you with approval
most efficacious it does get more
serious though when they do professional
damage to people I know uh without
naming names of uh of a very fine and
professional
photographer uh and these
stalkers uh in fact uh one of them very
well known to you one of the stalkers
very well known to you uh
unfortunately uh actually wrote to
people employing her yes well that's
happened to me as well has it so editors
that might run your
are targeted saying don't run this stuff
that's causing professional it does I
mean Financial damage just a couple of
months after my book review a appear one
of my commissioning editors uh in
Australia received an email from a
fictitious person Alias who was proven
to be an alias uh but linking to the
stalker's blog attacks on me saying have
you seen this that Mr Clark has lied
blah blah blah he's been exposed
basically trying to get them to stop
running my pieces which was an attempt
to destroy my livelihood yeah and you
know IP addresses were traced that would
linked this person to to my stalker so
it's it's very pernicious it goes on on
that kind of level they may not be
wearing a vest or living in an attic but
they behave as if they are I mean uh my
overwhelming feeling as as we're
discussing this is what a sad life these
people must have but then we're new in
this digital AIDS I say new because now
trt is really booming which it really
has been for the past know few years yes
so is this perhaps just a face well I
like to think so but I think Twitter has
been a good thing I think Twitter's
given Ordinary People a voice sure and
if you like The Establishment Elite
really don't like it and that that's why
when we have any articles written about
Twitter and the mainstream media it's
normally attacking members of the public
who actually challenging sort of
establishment figures but as I said the
most pernicious people on Twitter I
found have been these establishment
figures themselves who have been lying
and defaming about people you've been
defamed they've been retweeting this
stuff provocatively
and so I think that the way the whole
debate is framed I think Twitter isn't
really the problem itself it's it's the
way that these people get protected and
are allowed to do this this new age
though is on balance uh extraordinarily
positive for us we've got RT to give an
alternative point of view to question
more we've got all kind a plethora of uh
of websites and uh blogs and Twitter and
Facebook and so on I gave a speech last
night to 120 people in the hall and
28,000 watching uh live and in a few
hours afterwards uh meaning that my
public meeting was attended by more than
28,000 people um so uh globalization and
corporatization uh produced these tools
didn't predict that capitalism would
produce its own gravediggers uh It
produced these tools for other purposes
but the tools are now in existence and
can be used by people with very
different points of view I think that's
very good I agree 100% And I think that
I I'm the concern I have is that what
will happen with Twitter is that the
establishment will try to police it more
and the double standards are
extraordinary we've seen that people who
have been apprehended over their
behavior on Twitter have generally been
people who have been taking on
establishment figures NE Clark thank you
very much for joining us thank you
[Music]
and now it's your turn to tell us what
you think through the portals of social
media what's rling G so turkey's largest
newspaper Zaman was closed down
overnight right in response to that Tom
Copley says it was only a matter of time
Zaman have been doing a great job while
the mainstream media ignores repression
anise Germany says what happened to
arogant crocodile tears over the freedom
of Syria # Gone With the Wind yeah I
mean it was worse than closed down
overnight wasn't it it was transformed
it was like uh the Morning Star being
taken over and turned into pro pro
government Sun type newspaper well um we
talked about trolling should we feed
them or not atheist libertarian says
trolling is an art form and will always
be a worthy consequence of freedom of
expression of course he would say that
I'd say you know in your case and in
Neil's case it's actually a badge of
honor yes sometimes feels rather sharp
though as if the pin was sticking right
in you well that's all that we've got
time for this week which alas means
that's the end of the show you can stay
in touch with us through Twitter and
rtor Sputnik or Facebook Sputnik on
Russia today it's goodbye from me gatri
and from me George Galloway it's been
marvelous
oh